Randy McDonald ([info]rfmcdpei) wrote,
@ 2007-10-10 19:20:00
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Entry tags:armenia, clash of ideologies, geopolitics genocide, link, turkey

[LINK] Is the United States about to recognize the Armenian genocide?
From Reuters:

A U.S. House committee approved on Wednesday a resolution calling the 1915 massacres of Armenians genocide, brushing aside White House warnings that it would do "great harm" to ties with NATO ally Turkey, a key supporter in the Iraq war.

The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee approved the resolution 27-21. It now goes to the House floor, where Democratic leaders say there will be a vote by mid-November. There is a companion bill in the Senate, but both measures are strictly symbolic, and do not require the president's signature.

Turkey calls the resolution an insult and rejects the Armenian position, backed by many Western historians, that up to 1.5 million Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War One.

Turkey has warned of damage to bilateral ties if Congress passes the measure, and President George W. Bush made the same point before the vote Wednesday.

"This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror," Bush said at the White House.


Not withstanding my dislike for Bush and his policies and certain determined ahistorical brands of Turkish nationalism, it is quite true that US Congressional recognition of the Armenian genocide will strain the Turkish-American relationship quite badly and do bad things generally to the heart of the old Ottoman shatterbelt (look to Iraqi Kurdistan and the idea of Turkish military interventions against terrorists there, for starters). Then again, given how there doesn't seem to be much interest in avoiding confrontations and breakdowns, would American recognition of the Armenian genocide by anything more than a simple excuse for mayhem? Or, I hope, am I actually being overly pessimistic in my evaluations?

(15 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]zibblsnrt
2007-10-10 11:42 pm UTC (link)
Myself, I'm not that concerned with coddling the feelings of holocaust deniers, no matter which holocaust they deny.

(Reply to this)


[info]creases
2007-10-11 12:29 am UTC (link)
I suspect this is all part of an initiative to make people better aware of genocide and better equiped to judge it. Recent European and African fiascos attest to the need to be aware of it as an ongoing problem, not merely an aberration exclusive to the Shoah.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2007-10-11 04:25 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the sort of mindset that makes "Never again" mean "Never again will Germans kill Jews in central Europe in the mid-20th century!" is, um.

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[info]gridlore
2007-10-11 01:12 am UTC (link)
Screw the Turks. They continue to deny that the deaths of 1.5 Armenians living in Ottoman Turkey happened. Today the Turkish government is just itching to do the same thing to the Kurds, to the point of openly declaring their intentions to attack Kurds in Iraq.. Kurds who are the one stable and prosperous region of the country!

Note that Bush doesn't have to do anything here. This is a non-binding resolution, much like declaring April 16th National Eggs Benedict Day. (It is. Really.)

Turkey is by far the most Western Islamic state, but like the UK it is still dealing with the fact that it used to be a mighty empire and has lost that. Alas, denial seems to be their method of choice for dealing with historical reality.

Props to them for celebrating ANZAC day at Gallipoli.

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[info]optimussven
2007-10-11 02:50 am UTC (link)
The Turkish government is just itching to do the same thing to the Kurds

Oh please. Your ignorance is downright offensive.

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[info]gridlore
2007-10-11 03:13 am UTC (link)
They have slaughtered Kurds in Eastern Turkey and are now talking about invading northern Iraq to kill more Kurds.

I sincerely hope that if they try it, the US military waxes them.

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[info]optimussven
2007-10-11 12:31 pm UTC (link)
Yes and all your assumptions are obviously based in irrational hatred and borderline racism, thus they are offensive and invalid no matter how loudly you try and say them.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2007-10-11 04:25 pm UTC (link)
Hi!

In the interests of amity, let's please calm down.

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[info]gridlore
2007-10-12 12:15 am UTC (link)
I hang out in alt.conspiracy. We have a great number of Holocaust deniers there. When given facts, they too attack the person stating facts for being irrational or racist. You are in fine company there.

This is why the world needs to recognize the Armenian Genocide for what it is.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2007-10-11 04:24 pm UTC (link)
Hi!

In the interests of amity, let's please calm down.

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[info]inuitmonster
2007-10-11 08:08 pm UTC (link)
They continue to deny that the deaths of 1.5 Armenians living in Ottoman Turkey happened.

In fairness to the Turks, my understanding is that they do not deny that very large numbers of Armenians were killed by agents of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War, or that many of these victims may well have been non-combatants. I don't know what kind of numbers they put on Armenians killed, but given that academic estimates range from c. 1,000,000 to over 2,000,000 the numbers are not important; I think they accept, like most people, that more than one and a half Armenians were killed. They would also talk about numbers of Turkish or other people (e.g. Kurds) killed by Armenian rebels and so on, though I doubt they seriously claim that massacares of Turks and Kurds by Armenians were in the same order of magnitude as killings of Armenians by Kurds and Turks.

My understanding of the Turkish position is that they take exception to the word genocide, with its connotations of systematic and deliberate extermination. They point out that many Armenians in areas of the Ottoman Empire other than Eastern Anatolia (e.g. Istanbul itself) passed the war relatively unmolested, suggesting that the regime was not hell-bent on the total elimination of Armenians.

My own feeling is that genocide has become an overly emotive word, something like terrorism in that it is thrown at whoever you don't like this week. I don't think, however, that the Turks are doing themselves any favours on this issue, and their endless carping on definitions makes them look like a shifty villain who is trying to plea bargain.

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[info]inuitmonster
2007-10-11 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I've read a biot more on this, and it seems that while the Armenians in Constantinople were not all deported to their deaths, many of them were (or were just killed in Constantinople).

Also, I am not sure that anyone thinks more than 2,000,000 Armenians were killed.

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[info]optimussven
2007-10-11 02:48 am UTC (link)
I won't speculate as to the consequences of Turkish-American relations, but I will suggest that this will torpedo the efforts of the Turkish literati, intellectuals, and academics who have been working for years on this issue and making progress inside Turkey. It will also hinder efforts at Armenian-Turkish reconciliation. Of course we cannot expect members of the House to consider this or even pretend to understand the nuanced issue that is the question of the Armenian genocide, especially not with Armenian and Turkish lobbyists pushing them from both sides.

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[info]gridlore
2007-10-11 03:16 am UTC (link)
"Nuanced issue"? 1.5 MILLION people marched into the desert and killed. By the Turkish government.

Do you also think the Rape of Nanking is nuanced? How about the operations of the SS in Eastern Europe?

It was genocide, and too bad if Turkey doesn't like getting called on it.

Never Again.

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[info]optimussven
2007-10-11 12:32 pm UTC (link)
And your petty simplifications only harden my thoughts that this is something left to academics and not Congress.

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